November 15, 2019, 08:46:26 AM

Author Topic: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little  (Read 6613 times)

DRY

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 174
    • View Profile
After nationals this year I plan to re-work my squat technique.  My raw squat is very narrow, relies a lot on bounce and excessive forward knee travel.  I do not think it is very well-connected to my equipped squat.  I am going to start light and slow working on moving stance out some, keeping knee travel to be less, and using more muscle/less bounce.  I've made a short list of secondary moves (Pause on pins, pause at bottom, pause half way up, slow squats) but am wondering if anyone has any others that they think might be good in this situation?  I want to improve raw squat, but all changes are made so that raw leads to a good equipped

Also, does anyone have any experience with the deadlifts that a lot of Northern Euros are doing lately, pausing a few CM off of the floor?  I know the pause at knee but am interested in this one

Video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaTBJHOjTRI
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 04:01:53 AM by Robert Frederick »

Robert Frederick

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2015, 04:19:09 AM »
I've got a narrow stance, excessive forward knee travel squat too. For me the problem is a weak back. The legs are strong enough it's just the back can't do its share. One thing I've done is to switch to conventional deadlifts so I can lift something heavy with the steeper back angle that I would need if I got rid of the knee travel. I've even done those pausing off the floor deadlifts. They feel nice but I'm not sure how helpful they are. I get a strong stretch at the bottom pause that helps me lift it back up that I don't have if I just start from the floor.

DRY

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 174
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2015, 04:43:37 AM »
It is interesting that you say weak back. Sheiko said weak legs when he saw my squat :D . I am doing conventional also anyways to build back. Even if I have a weak something I don't think making the other part stronger is automatically bad. I am thinking a nice slow low intensity cycle while just focusing on aligning raw kinematics with the equipped should help.... Just gotta take it very slow for my hips to adjust

Robert Frederick

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2015, 05:56:01 AM »
That is interesting. I tried looking at your squat to see the weak legs. It reminds me of the spinning dancer or similar illusions. I can see it both ways. Now I don't know what I'm looking at anymore.

Clockwise or counter-clockwise?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_Dancer#mediaviewer/File:PET-MIPS-anim.gif

DRY

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 174
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2015, 05:18:39 PM »
I can understand both sides.  On one hand, my back angle becomes pretty big out of the hole meaning it works more.  On the other hand, this could be from my legs extending faster from being stronger.  I think relying too much on bounce is the problem.  Not to say bouncing and speed are bad, but I feel as though I do not use any muscle until the 2nd half of the concentric

Robert Frederick

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2015, 11:01:28 AM »
If I watch mine frame by frame it's very clearly my back. I come out of the bottom position quickly and the bar rises as my knees open. When my legs get close to their strongest position around the half squat knee angle the bar slows down. Of course my legs can drive the bar further as they are now in an even more advantageous position than they were before. But if my knees were to open further without my hips also opening I'd probably fall forward. As soon as my back catches up and my hips open a little more the bar resumes a speedy ascent. So the strain is clearly on my back at the most critical moment but it's not me transferring the load off my weaker legs and onto my back, it's my back failing to keep up with my stronger legs. If I stand wider in a more hip dominant position I won't squat nearly as much. It's also telling that my deadlift is probably my weakest lift. But I think the biggest giveaway that it's not the reversed situation between legs and back is that if I set up pins at my weakest point and squat down to them while getting that on video, my back angle is more ideal on the way down than on the way back up at the same bar position, even with more weight. My back lags on the way up but not on the way down.


Luigi Papino

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2015, 06:00:52 PM »
I've got a narrow stance, excessive forward knee travel squat too. For me the problem is a weak back.

It is interesting that you say weak back. Sheiko said weak legs when he saw my squat :D . I

You are lucky guys!
I have a weak back and more weak legs

DRY

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 174
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2015, 06:18:03 PM »
It's also telling that my deadlift is probably my weakest lift.
You and me both man.  Squat 260 versus pull 250.  Add equipment its 330 versus 262.5

Galactus

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 12:20:45 AM »
I'd say it almost definitely is legs, with weak glutes.

Rather than the legs extending because they're strong, it's more a case of the hips shooting back allowing the stronger back to take over.

Glutes as your legs are caving in somewhat on the ascent, in combination with the above.

Stronger legs and glutes would help. Having said that, I do like the squatty bounce style of Squatting it just needs a little more precision. Regular paused Squats focusing on getting deep and opening the knees out on the way up should go some towards alleviating issues. Particularly getting those paused Squats within 10% of your max Squat.

Dingle

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2015, 03:03:48 AM »
http://www.strengtheory.com/fixing-the-good-morning-squat/

Ive been battling with this for a long time now. Im the opposite to you guys I have a strong pull and a meh squat. Ive squatted 242.5 and pulled 310 mind you thats sumo. Ive found personally since adding in front squats often as the second squat session I was able to build my squat significantly and keep a more upright back angle.

Robert Frederick

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 04:03:08 PM »
I'd say it almost definitely is legs, with weak glutes.

Rather than the legs extending because they're strong, it's more a case of the hips shooting back allowing the stronger back to take over.

Glutes as your legs are caving in somewhat on the ascent, in combination with the above.

Stronger legs and glutes would help. Having said that, I do like the squatty bounce style of Squatting it just needs a little more precision. Regular paused Squats focusing on getting deep and opening the knees out on the way up should go some towards alleviating issues. Particularly getting those paused Squats within 10% of your max Squat.

Yeah, I'm calling it as legs too. In one shot I can see your moment arms shift right at the beginning of the concentric portion. You almost entirely eliminate the knee moment arm. And while the bar and your hips both rise at the beginning it looks like the hips rise faster. Together that seems to indicate that you are taking your legs out of it and placing the load on your back.


Galactus

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2015, 04:45:45 PM »
I'd say it almost definitely is legs, with weak glutes.

Rather than the legs extending because they're strong, it's more a case of the hips shooting back allowing the stronger back to take over.

Glutes as your legs are caving in somewhat on the ascent, in combination with the above.

Stronger legs and glutes would help. Having said that, I do like the squatty bounce style of Squatting it just needs a little more precision. Regular paused Squats focusing on getting deep and opening the knees out on the way up should go some towards alleviating issues. Particularly getting those paused Squats within 10% of your max Squat.

Yeah, I'm calling it as legs too. In one shot I can see your moment arms shift right at the beginning of the concentric portion. You almost entirely eliminate the knee moment arm. And while the bar and your hips both rise at the beginning it looks like the hips rise faster. Together that seems to indicate that you are taking your legs out of it and placing the load on your back.

Yes, and these types of builds typically get a LOT out of knee wraps which would explain the SQ/DL differential.

On a different note, I've yet to see anyone who genuinely is too quad dominant. If the body is kept upright, the load will run through the torso and is taken up by the legs. Which is an ideal situation. Strong quads are always good to have.

DRY

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 174
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2015, 04:59:01 PM »
Thanks guys. 

Galactus first comment: I don't mind bouncy squats for raw, but I am an equipped lifter and my stance is just too narrow.  As for the theory of leg weakness, the major issue with that is I squat probably 40kg more than my best conventional deadlift.  I do not see how that is possible with a strong back. 

Dingle first comment:  While I hate front squats, the muscle I am focusing on currently is indeed the quadriceps.  I have done only posterior chain assistance for the last half decade so they probably need a little love

Robert:  Do you see the same issue while in a suit?  One annoyance I'm having is that the issues I have with each do not seem very reflected in the other

Galactus 2nd comment:  Wraps can't explain the squat/dl differential given that I am not wearing wraps with the indicated number.  In wraps the differential is 275 versus 250.  I usually don't report that because its not a competition move and I only do it when too lazy to put my suit on.  I don't disagree with the quad context though.  I have been working in the recent past (since all of these videos) to correct this a little and to increase quad activation.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 05:24:46 PM by DRY »

Galactus

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2015, 05:31:29 PM »
Thanks guys. 

Galactus first comment: I don't mind bouncy squats for raw, but I am an equipped lifter and my stance is just too narrow.  As for the theory of leg weakness, the major issue with that is I squat probably 40kg more than my best conventional deadlift. I do not see how that is possible with a strong back.

Dingle first comment:  While I hate front squats, the muscle I am focusing on currently is indeed the quadriceps.  I have done only posterior chain assistance for the last half decade so they probably need a little love

Robert:  Do you see the same issue while in a suit?  One annoyance I'm having is that the issues I have with each do not seem very reflected in the other

Galactus 2nd comment:  Wraps can't explain the squat/dl differential given that I am not wearing wraps with the indicated number. In wraps the differential is 275 versus 250.  I usually don't report that because its not a competition move and I only do it when too lazy to put my suit on.  I don't disagree with the quad context though.  I have been working in the recent past (since all of these videos) to correct this a little and to increase quad activation.

I think it'd be better if you stopped considering the lifts in terms of Squats=Legs and Deads=Back. Any weakness will manifest itself in some sort of form slip. Robert and I have broken down why we think it's quads, and why I think it's glutes too.

Weak quads leaving you with a relatively decent back squat, which is heavily reliant on the posterior and a stalled deadlift is actually a fairly common issue which I see a lot.

Robert Frederick

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
    • View Profile
Re: Best assistance for narrow bouncy squatter trying to clean it up a little
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2015, 06:28:21 PM »

Robert:  Do you see the same issue while in a suit?  One annoyance I'm having is that the issues I have with each do not seem very reflected in the other


Yeah, in your last squat in the video your hips come up out of the bottom and push back, shortening the knee moment arm. Then when your knee angle gets to its most favored angle, while your back is holding the load, you rock back forward a bit now that your legs are in a stronger position which shortens the hip moment arm so you can complete the lift.