Sheiko Forum
General Powerlifting => Universal Topics => Topic started by: Boris Sheiko on July 09, 2014, 06:53:46 AM
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Edit: This post is also available in Italian. (http://goo.gl/MiGeyG) Thanks Massimiliano Buccioni for the translation.
Previously it was mentioned that recommendations for monthly volume are the following:
Beginner = 700
Class 3 = 900
Classes 1 & 2 = 1000
CMS = 1100
MS = 1250
MSIC = 1700
Having seen these it is difficult to make an assessment of these recommendations without further explanation, such as:
1. To what period of training do these recommendations apply: the base, competitive or the average of all periods?
2. The number of training day these loads should be applied to is not specified. For example, in most cases the MSIC athletes in Russia train 4-5 times per week, MS train 4 times, Class 1 and CMS train 3-4+ times, and the others train 3 times. From this, it follows that the more training days, the easier it is to carry a greater load.
3 workouts in 1 week = 12 per month
4 workouts in 1 week = 16 per month
5 workouts in 1 week = 20 per month
3. It is not known whether the number of lifts includes general developmental exercises, such as hyperextensions, reverse hypers, exercises for the abs, exercises for the pectorals, lats, arm muscles, or leg muscles. And what about incline bench presses, shoulder presses, dumbbell bench presses, etc.?
4. We should also not forget that athletes in lighter weight classes can more easily handle larger loading than athletes in heavier weight categories. Therefore, the programs of athletes in lighter weight classes are planned with larger volumes than athletes in heavier weight categories.
5. Similarly, it is much easier for juniors to handle larger loading than adults and the same relationship applies between adults and veterans.
Beginners (1st Month) - 3 training sessions per week.
In the first month I plan only one exercise with a barbell at a time to study the art (from three-competitive lifts). I usually use 5-6 lifts in 5 approaches. For example:
Day 1 - learning how to perform squats.
Day 3 - learning how to perform bench presses.
Day 5 - learning how to perform deadlifts.
Also planned alongside the barbell exercise are 3-4 exercises for the development of general athletic qualities such as power, speed-strength, endurance, and flexibility. Agility is also developed through participation in team sports (football, basketball, volleyball) once or twice per week.
The result is 350 - 450 competitive lifts and special preparatory exercises. Great attention is paid to general fitness.
Beginners (Months 2-4) – 3 training sessions per week.
Two barbell exercises are planned in this stage, one competitive exercise, and one specifically for securing technique. For example:
Day 1
1. Squat
2. Bench press w/board
Day 3
1. Bench press
2. Deadlift off boxes
Day 5
1. Box squats
2. Close grip bench press
The result is 450 - 550 competitive lifts and special preparatory exercises at low intensity in the range of 50-60%. The share of general physical exercises still constitute the majority of the volume.
Classes 2 & 3 - 3 training sessions per week.
The athletes continue pursing technique mastery. Special preparatory exercises are used not only to secure technique, but also to increase the strength qualities of lagging muscle groups. Loading is increased from 600 - 750 competitive lifts and special preparatory exercises. The intensity of loads rises to 60-65% in the preparatory periods. The share of general physical exercise is reduced slightly.
Class 1 and CMS - 3-4+ training sessions per week.
During training sessions the athletes work on improving the performance of equipment and the development of competitive exercise power qualities through special preparatory exercises. The number of lifts in competitive and special preparatory exercises for 16 workouts per month range from 800 - 1300. Intensity increases to 67-69% in the preparatory periods.
MS and MSIC (Elite)
There can be no recommended levels of stress. Here are some real examples of loading variations in this group of athletes:
Microcycle Load Distribution of a MS Lifter in the Preparatory Period
|
Week 1 |
Week 2 |
Week 3 |
Week 4 |
Total |
| Lifts |
204 |
183 |
252 |
200 |
1237 |
| Avg % |
68.2% |
69.7% |
68.5% |
68.8% |
69.0% |
| Workouts |
4 |
4 |
4 |
4 |
16 |
The next example is for Andrey Belyaev.
Microcycle Load Distribution of a MSIC Lifter in the Preparatory Period
|
Week 1 |
Week 2 |
Week 3 |
Week 4 |
Total |
| Lifts |
365 |
341 |
385 |
326 |
1417 |
| Avg % |
68.0% |
71.4% |
73.7% |
69.5% |
70.7% |
| Workouts |
8 |
8 |
8 |
8 |
32 |
The next example is for Alexey Sivokon.
Microcycle Load Distribution of a Honorary MSIC Lifter in the Preparatory Period
|
Week 1 |
Week 2 |
Week 3 |
Week 4 |
Total |
| Lifts |
756 |
724 |
831 |
801 |
3112 |
| Avg % |
69.6% |
72.5% |
71.7% |
60.5% |
71.2% |
| Workouts |
7 |
8 |
8 |
8 |
31 |
See the graphic for a summary. You will see the typical volume progression as well as examples of programs on this site. Notice that special cases such as juniors and lighter weight categories can tolerate above average volumes. Dear reader, please do not take the graph as dogma. It is based on averages and will not apply in every case.
(http://i.imgur.com/73zVzBe.png)
You can check your classification here (http://sheiko-program.ru/forum/index.php?topic=3.0).
- Excellent. Thank you coach Sheiko!
- That is a really good article. Thanks coach!
- In case anyone looks and asks, the three program volumes plotted on the graph are the average volumes. Some months will be higher (prep) and some lower (comp).
- So I am a level III at 90kgs 177cm tall (need to gain weight). I am lifting 760 per month over a ten week period (on average with a high of 1000 one month) four days a week. This is based on the universal appropriate program. I have added around 15 lifts per month since my previous cycle (mainly to squat since results were not great last cycle). Is there any harm to me doing four days per week rather than the recommended three? I do enjoy being in the gym and am managing to recover it seems due to plenty if available time to rest due to working at home.
- Why is there such a huge difference between the loading of Andrey Belyaev and Alexey Sivokon? They are both "gifted".
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Why is there such a huge difference between the loading of Andrey Belyaev and Alexey Sivokon? They are both "gifted".
He probably also chose these two in particular to illustrate the point he's trying to make. They are both high level athletes and yet there is a big difference in what they need to do to get results.
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Is there any harm to me doing four days per week rather than the recommended three?
A three day program with 1000 lifts is a bit different from a four day with 1000 lifts. In the former case you have greater acute stresses due to the concentration of loading. Since you are a Class III lifter you aren't getting large absolute stresses from the average weight lifted so I think the three day would be better in your case to make up for that. When your classification rises a bit, body weight increases, and you're using heavier weights you can move to the four day with initially less concentrated loading and a bit more technique practice due to the extra day.
- Thanks Robert,
I will finish this current cycle, since I have a meet in six weeks. I just tested today and had a 66lb deadlift PR so obviously this program is working (albeit probably not optimally). Note this actually puts me fairly close to a class II lifter now.
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I just tested today and had a 66lb deadlift PR so obviously this program is working
On the other hand you can't beat tangible results. Your idea to just tweak the squat sounds better now than it did before. How about your bench?
- I only tested deadlift (squat and bench were lifted at 90%), since I am on week 4 and shouldn't have even tested deadlift (except I felt deadlift was ready to go right up). In the last cycle Bench went from a touch and go slow 260lb to a nice fast competition 264lb and almost a 270lb. The touch and go was also not heel down as required in the CPU (IPF). Hard to quantify, but i would say a ~10-15lbs bump in a ten week cycle, which I suspect is good. I am still having upper back tightness issues, but the frequency has been certainly helping me work on this and get a better feel. My leg drive is now way better for sure. I think the real measurement will be the next meet. If I can get 275lbs then I would say that it is working well.
- Two out of three making progress is not bad. I'd be reluctant to change something that's working, at least nothing dramatic. Squats in the three day and four day are very similar so switching won't help that much. You could add some extra sets at different intensities. The legs seem to respond well to variety. I think your set structure is probably something like 1,1,1,4 in many cases. You could do 1,2,2,5 instead. Check out some of these set/rep schemes:
http://sheiko-program.ru/forum/index.php?topic=6.0 (http://sheiko-program.ru/forum/index.php?topic=6.0)
You can also try some different special exercises if you haven't already considered that.
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Why is there such a huge difference between the loading of Andrey Belyaev and Alexey Sivokon? They are both "gifted".
He probably also chose these two in particular to illustrate the point he's trying to make. They are both high level athletes and yet there is a big difference in what they need to do to get results.
It is also consistent with point 4. in the original post by the coach that a lighter lifter can handle a larger training volume. Sivokon usually competed in the -67.5 kg weight class whereas Belyaev tends to compete in the -90 kg or -100 kg weight classes. I remember first seeing Sivokon back in 1994 in Järvenpää at the Bench Press World Championships, he lifts at 7.45 minutes into this video http://youtu.be/UUOHfimwEAA?t=7m45s (http://youtu.be/UUOHfimwEAA?t=7m45s) with the famous coach standing right behind him.
The difference in volume is nevertheless huge and would hence also need to come down to the two lifters responding quite differently to large training volumes, again making the point that the individual differences can be quite significant in some cases (Sivokon has been referenced to as performing massive lifting “marathons” in the bench press). The Sivokon/Belyaev volume difference is most surely not representative of the general case though, especially at less qualified levels of lifters, as can be glanced by the not so big volume difference for the three-times-a-week-program for the light/heavy lifter depicted in the original graph.
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The Sivokon/Belyaev volume difference is most surely not representative of the general case though, especially at less qualified levels of lifters, as can be glanced by the not so big volume difference for the three-times-a-week-program for the light/heavy lifter depicted in the original graph.
I agree. Nice first post by the way.
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Two out of three making progress is not bad. I'd be reluctant to change something that's working, at least nothing dramatic. Squats in the three day and four day are very similar so switching won't help that much. You could add some extra sets at different intensities. The legs seem to respond well to variety. I think your set structure is probably something like 1,1,1,4 in many cases. You could do 1,2,2,5 instead. Check out some of these set/rep schemes:
[url]http://sheiko-program.ru/forum/index.php?topic=6.0[/url] ([url]http://sheiko-program.ru/forum/index.php?topic=6.0[/url])
You can also try some different special exercises if you haven't already considered that.
Thank you, yes I have already tweaked some squat rep schemes as you just described in an effort to add a little more volume to the program. I will see how this works.
- V.A. Salnikov and B.V. Kimeisha (1979) did a study on the excitability of the nervous systems of weightlifters and found that those with low excitability responded better (more progress in the biathlon total) to larger volumes and those with high excitability responded better to lower volumes. Lifters with high excitability also responded better to high intensity than those with low excitability.
I think they used a method like this (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003927.htm) to measure excitability.
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V.A. Salnikov and B.V. Kimeisha (1979) did a study on the excitability of the nervous systems of weightlifters and found that those with low excitability responded better (more progress in the biathlon total) to larger volumes and those with high excitability responded better to lower volumes. Lifters with high excitability also responded better to high intensity than those with low excitability.
I think they used a method like this ([url]http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003927.htm[/url]) to measure excitability.
Ehi Robert, this is a very very interesting thing. I never heard before. Thanks for sharing.
- There are a lot of really interesting research papers from decades ago. Unfortunately they are not digitized and so very hard to find and read all the interesting details.
- My lab could recreate that project. We won't because there's no money in it though. Sad thing
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My lab could recreate that project. We won't because there's no money in it though. Sad thing
Could you please tell more about your lab?
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My lab could recreate that project. We won't because there's no money in it though. Sad thing
Could you please tell more about your lab?
what would you like to know? I just moved from another to it, actually haven't started yet. It is a standard, but well equipped bio mechanics lab with Neuro stuff too
- Just wondering what kind of research is possible there.
May be you have already written about it before on this forum. If so - sorry. )
I am not a native speaker. It is a bit harder to read in English than in Russian for me. )
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Just wondering what kind of research is possible there.
May be you have already written about it before on this forum. If so - sorry. )
I am not a native speaker. It is a bit harder to read in English than in Russian for me. )
I don't think there is anything that is not possible at this lab :)
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V.A. Salnikov and B.V. Kimeisha (1979) did a study on the excitability of the nervous systems of weightlifters and found that those with low excitability responded better (more progress in the biathlon total) to larger volumes and those with high excitability responded better to lower volumes. Lifters with high excitability also responded better to high intensity than those with low excitability.
I think they used a method like this ([url]http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003927.htm[/url]) to measure excitability.
This is very fascinating and is something I have come to notice when comparing preferred training styles; particularly between myself and FeakGoHome.
I had recently modified the bench gimme's to achieve a higher weekly intensity than otherwise prescribed; in turn suiting me better.
How would you advise changes to a template to suit a lifter with a high excitability vs low excitability. In what ranges would suitable adjustments be made in both volumes and intensities?
- For high excitability one could start off with a lower volume template and use inflated maxes. For low excitability a higher volume template is probably fine as is.
- Hello everyone, I wanted to ask for more information about the monthly volume and exercises overall development. These exercises are to be considered in the monthly volume? Some exercises such as variations of the deadlift and others do not like abs and iperstensioni? Ultimately what exercises should be included in the monthly statement of the volume workout?
thanks
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Hello everyone, I wanted to ask for more information about the monthly volume and exercises overall development. These exercises are to be considered in the monthly volume? Some exercises such as variations of the deadlift and others do not like abs and iperstensioni? Ultimately what exercises should be included in the monthly statement of the volume workout?
thanks
All comp lifts and comp lift variations are included.
- I just attended your workshop in Portland, OR, USA. This post really helps tie together, how to program given experience level, and how many days a week to train. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and being a wonderful teacher that took the time to come teach us.
- I have to agree with the earlier poster, this forum hits a good balance between interesting theory and hard work, my idea is to rarely reason myself into doing less. One question i'd like to throw out there is, is one of these (high or low excitability) better in way of long term strength potential?
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I have to agree with the earlier poster, this forum hits a good balance between interesting theory and hard work, my idea is to rarely reason myself into doing less. One question i'd like to throw out there is, is one of these (high or low excitability) better in way of long term strength potential?
No idea. I'd guess probably not though.
- hi.,
i want to ask, where should i start? this is my first time run sheiko.
i got my competition 15 weeks.
here is my lift:
squat: 160 kg
bench: 105 kg
deadlift: 205 kg
weight class: U66
bw : 72kg
thanks
- Are you in the 66 kilo class?
you should look into either 3 day or 4 day programmes :)
- I put a question in the 3-day group but maybe I should place it here.
How should I reason being a Master-2 lifter?
I have been going to the gym since 1979 but only been doing powerlifting the last 1.5 years.
56 years old
1.89m/103kg (which means 105kg Master 2 class)
Results from first competition 1 month ago:
Squat 150kg
Benchpress 120kg
Deadlift 190kg
App says intermediate/medium load which I have been following for half a year with little improvement. Feels like I should do deadlift twice a week to improve technique.
I also hold 2 spinning classes per week + maybe participate in a bit of yoga, swimming etc.
Considering to try advanced/low load.
Does anyone have any experience from other old men in powerlifting. What frequency / load seems to be optimal?
Any input/comments appreciated
/Borje
- You can give the small load 4-day a try and see how it goes. You've already got other activities going on so maybe distributing the load over another day will help.
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Are you in the 66 kilo class?
you should look into either 3 day or 4 day programmes :)
yes but dont know where to start., small/medium/large intermediate or advanced?
- Do you use app or excel spreadsheets found here?
According to this http://sheiko-program.ru/forum/index.php?topic=3.0 (http://sheiko-program.ru/forum/index.php?topic=3.0) you are MS, so we are talking 4xweek programmes
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Do you use app or excel spreadsheets found here?
According to this [url]http://sheiko-program.ru/forum/index.php?topic=3.0[/url] ([url]http://sheiko-program.ru/forum/index.php?topic=3.0[/url]) you are MS, so we are talking 4xweek programmes
i am using app... can 1 start with advanced medium load prep 2 for 5 weeks then jump to advanced medium load comp for 5 weeks?
- I would rather do week 1-5 of a prep and cut from the comp. since you don't have much time.
Try out medium load first. You can always adjust later on.
- Hey,
I got myself the sheiko app for android but I have no idea which programm to use. I'm 1,76 cm, 76kg with ~ 10% BF and my total is somewhere around 500 kg. Last couple of months I wasted a lot of time by trying out a basic/novice powerlifting routine. Thought it's a good idea to see if I still can make progress but i don't.
So first of all would you recommend me to train three or four times the week? I would prefeer three times, but I'm a little bit scared of the volume of some of those programmes. I read some people usually need 2-3 hours to finish their sheiko sessions.
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Hey,
I got myself the sheiko app for android but I have no idea which programm to use. I'm 1,76 cm, 76kg with ~ 10% BF and my total is somewhere around 500 kg. Last couple of months I wasted a lot of time by trying out a basic/novice powerlifting routine. Thought it's a good idea to see if I still can make progress but i don't.
So first of all would you recommend me to train three or four times the week? I would prefeer three times, but I'm a little bit scared of the volume of some of those programmes. I read some people usually need 2-3 hours to finish their sheiko sessions.
4 days a week would be preferable. Are you only able to do 3, then do 3.
Are you accustomed to volume-training? Yes, sheikos usually takes somewhere between 2 and 3 hours depending on what is planned for the day. Remember there is a lot of focus on technique in sheiko.
- Thanks for the answer :)
I never ran a higher volume template so probably no. The amount of technique training in sheiko is one of the reasons I wanna try it. Maybe it's best to start with 3 days and low volume and make adjustments from there. That would be the 3 day small load template for intermediate lifters. Only think I dont like about the routine is that I should peak and even set a 4-5% PR in block 2after only 5 weeks of training.
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Thanks for the answer :)
I never ran a higher volume template so probably no. The amount of technique training in sheiko is one of the reasons I wanna try it. Maybe it's best to start with 3 days and low volume and make adjustments from there. That would be the 3 day small load template for intermediate lifters. Only think I dont like about the routine is that I should peak and even set a 4-5% PR in block 2after only 5 weeks of training.
Definitely run a low volume template then. It is also very good to have somebody look at your technique regulary or to film it. Usually a template is between 16 and 20 weeks. You should not peak after only 5 weeks of training.
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You should not peak after only 5 weeks of training.
The sheiko app tells me to do a single with 100% and with 104% in week 2 of the 3 day small load preparation 2. Small load preparation 1 lasts 4 weeks so the peak is after 5 weeks of training. Maybe there is a misunderstanding here? :-\
The other templates don't have this early peak in the preparation.
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You should not peak after only 5 weeks of training.
The sheiko app tells me to do a single with 100% and with 104% in week 2 of the 3 day small load preparation 2. Small load preparation 1 lasts 4 weeks so the peak is after 5 weeks of training. Maybe there is a misunderstanding here? :-\
The other templates don't have this early peak in the preparation.
It could be due to the program thinking you are new to powerlifting and as such you get fast progress and could be worth testing earlier. The reason why they wouldn't have it that early is that would be advanced. Anyway, you shouldn't be afraid of that.
The app. programs are pretty well thought through, so I don't think it a mistake.
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You should not peak after only 5 weeks of training.
The sheiko app tells me to do a single with 100% and with 104% in week 2 of the 3 day small load preparation 2. Small load preparation 1 lasts 4 weeks so the peak is after 5 weeks of training. Maybe there is a misunderstanding here? :-\
The other templates don't have this early peak in the preparation.
It could be due to the program thinking you are new to powerlifting and as such you get fast progress and could be worth testing earlier. The reason why they wouldn't have it that early is that would be advanced. Anyway, you shouldn't be afraid of that.
The app. programs are pretty well thought through, so I don't think it a mistake.
Yeah that might be the reason. Thank you :)
So I think I will just pick up one of the routines and do adjustments or change the routine after I went through a full cycle. I think I will check if I'm able to go 4 times a week with one of those advanced 4 days routines since almost everyone recommends it.
Multiple times I read that people talking about the programm that the app recommended for them. Is this feature only for the iOS app?
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You should not peak after only 5 weeks of training.
The sheiko app tells me to do a single with 100% and with 104% in week 2 of the 3 day small load preparation 2. Small load preparation 1 lasts 4 weeks so the peak is after 5 weeks of training. Maybe there is a misunderstanding here? :-\
The other templates don't have this early peak in the preparation.
It could be due to the program thinking you are new to powerlifting and as such you get fast progress and could be worth testing earlier. The reason why they wouldn't have it that early is that would be advanced. Anyway, you shouldn't be afraid of that.
The app. programs are pretty well thought through, so I don't think it a mistake.
Yeah that might be the reason. Thank you :)
So I think I will just pick up one of the routines and do adjustments or change the routine after I went through a full cycle. I think I will check if I'm able to go 4 times a week with one of those advanced 4 days routines since almost everyone recommends it.
Multiple times I read that people talking about the programm that the app recommended for them. Is this feature only for the iOS app?
I'll let Robert answer that, as it is an app-technical question.
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>>Also this could be a good place to ask: is each volume calculated taking ALL SETS/REPS on the cycle? would I have less preparation if I don't do all warming up sets? ???
Lets take squats. Then for each week the number of reps and volume are calculated and one can aggregate that into monthly length or length of the (prep./comp.) cycle. Since Sheiko starts programs at 50% (given comp. squat) everything that is below that is not counted. You should still do a thorough warm-up and proper series until 50%. Search forum for "warm up" if you want to know more about this.
Please be aware that Boris likes to write variations of a given exercise and adjust percentages according to the comp. lift.
- Thanks